Club Jesus
Posted by Gordy | Filed under Spirituality
The other day, some friends and I were talking about how people tend to act cliquish in regards toward religious faiths or denominations. I have actually been thinking a lot about this. I have some concerns about this mainly because I can sometimes see myself as the guilty party. I want to discuss some of my thoughts on this issue.
It’s come to my attention that people who are religious are, it seems, taught to have a thought process based on exclusivity. While it’s true that everyone is guilty of adopting this mindset to a certain degree, I’m afraid us religious folk are among the guiltiest. I know that in my life, I can honestly see that there is at least some truth to this.
Fan-Clubs
A friend of mine, Ed, came up with an incredible allegory to illustrate this idea. He comically uses The Foo Fighters in his illustration because they had just played in Pensacola when he came up with it. It goes as follows.
The Foo Fighters come to town and play a show. Later, you see someone in a record store looking at Foo Fighters CDs. You two discuss how much you like the Foo Fighters music and how their shows are phenomenally intense. There’s two options, now. Option number one is to go about you day knowing that you and someone else shared your admiration for the Foo Fighters and left it at that. Option number two is to start a fan-club.
What’s wrong with that?”
Here’s the deal. When you start a fan-club, there is “some assembly required.” You have to set up the do’s, don’ts, missions statements, etc… Now that you have that done, one of you decides that you no longer like the rules. You two argue with each other to the point where one of you decides to leave the club and start your own. Not only that, but now you two have others fighting over who the greatest fans of The Foo Fighters really are.
Did you see what just happened? Denominationalism. Does that sound familiar? I think so. So what’s the big deal? Is it really that bad? Well when it comes to religion, apparently it is.
You see, when one buys into this fan-club mentality they tend to label, judge, and exclude others who aren’t a member. Excluding people that don’t size up to your standards is what keeps the club going. The worst part about all of this isn’t actually that it’s done; the worst part is that we’ll defend all of it. We will side with our egos and refuse to admit that this is a serious problem in the brotherhood.
Who’s to blame?
There are some things we do or say that help to divide Christianity even more. Here are some accurate examples that are practiced:
- Paying to much attention to what the sign outside says.
If the sign outside says one thing, we don’t like talking to anyone else whose sign doesn’t say the same thing. This is most assuredly something that makes Jesus smile. Think about it: Is it possible for a church to have “Church of Christ” on the sign and still be one that practices things deemed unscriptural or even “wrong?” That was a rhetorical question because they answers is yes. Here’s a real one: If the sign on the outside can’t save you, then what’s to say a simple sign can condemn you? It can’t.
- When we use the term “christian”, we actually mean “member.”
This one is pretty much cut-and-dry. When you subscribe to a fan-club, you will most likely use some terminology that divides people. It’s as if ones who aren’t members have somehow become “class B” people. This is ridiculous.
- We ask about a person, “Are they a member of The Church?”
My use of capitalization shows the tremendous egotism of that thought process. In my religious upbringing, the use of the term “The Church” actually means “Church of Christ” and only that. Isn’t this arrogant? Again, another tool for the promotion of an in-group/out-group mentality.
Brethren, unite!
Think about how much we have in common with the churches. Most of the reasons we exclude ourselves (clapping, instruments, etc…) are things that Jesus never really talked about anyway, which lets you know just how important they are. Must we divide ourselves so maliciously? Do we really know about Jesus more than any other group? Why are we constantly concentrating on the very small list of things that divide us? Instead, shouldn’t we focus on the things that unite us?
What about Jesus? Have we forgotten how to truly live just like Him? Would he divide people like us? Would Jesus ever refuse to associate with anyone? If you’re truly honest with yourself, I think you’ll admit that He wouldn’t. We need to start tearing down some walls that have hurt His message of love. I will begin doing my part. I hope that you will do the same.
Tags: brotherhood, Christ, church, club, denomination, division, exclusive, Jesus, love, message
November 30th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I am in great agreement here, Jordan. That last question in particular frustrates me. It drives me nuts to hear someone ask “are they *really* a Christian”? Well obviously I don’t know. I don’t know their beliefs or their relationship with God, and I tend to favor the “innocent until proven guilty” approach. Of course we must beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing, but I still think it’s better to assume they are than to assume off the bat that they are condemned. If they aren’t, and that comes out in time, you’ll have a better relationship to work off of. Besides, it is so dangerous to assume that we know everything about what God wants and that everyone else is ignorant. This is pharisaical to the extreme. It turns the new covenant into simply a new version of the old law.
Anyway, I degress - here has been my biggest question personally in all of this. At what point do we draw the line? I mean, clearly there is an importance in knowing the difference between the sheep, goats, and wolves. Clearly there are things God requires of us, from the point of salvation onward. So how do we determine these requirements? How do we know that a) we are saved and b) others are lost? What objectively separates us?
December 1st, 2008 at 12:52 am
I basically agree with everything you said. Just because someone doesn’t subscribe to my particular brand of “the Church” doesn’t mean they aren’t part of God’s people.
The elect should never be found to be elitist. Yes, we are the elect, a chosen people, a royal priesthood. But that doesn’t give us the right to tout our spiritual status like a middle-aged woman with a E-Class Mercedes. We should have the humility to recognize that we have our own struggles and previous misconceptions in our spiritual walk.
However, I think it can be dangerous to buy into the notion that “anything goes, whether it’s Biblical or not.” I’m not accusing you of promoting that at all. But I will say we must be aware that there are non-biblical practices out there that aren’t pleasing to God.
And along with that, we must also be mindful that we can learn from those who have different practices. Sometimes, we can find aspects of others’ spirituality that can enhance our own.
But what do I know? I’m just an idealistic restorationist. That’s my particular flavor of Christianity.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:55 am
Well, I stopped labeling myself a Christian a long time ago, and everybody knows this about me by now. I’m not against that label so to speak, but it just doesn’t really fit who I am personally. I prefer to be just a child of God and leave it at that. I know that scares certain people, because then they ask, “well how in the heck do I label him, judge him, or fit him into my box? What do I do now in order to size him up?” And some people will anyway, because that’s just the nature of the human race, which is fine, I can live with that. I probably do the same thing myself from time to time.
I just find that when you speak about the Christian religion, particularly in its modern form, the club, as Jordan calls it, you create so many barriers to communication, but when you speak of the pure message and teachings of Jesus that people are more open to that.
Yes I said it - there is a distinct difference between much (but not all) of the modern christian religion and the purity of Jesus.
I believe that the world is hungry for Jesus. I believe that the powerful spiritual foundation that he laid for the world is what many of us are searching for. The corporate church, although it is the self - proclaimed instrument of the those teachings, more often then not gets in the ways to the point to where the message and the meaning is lost.
yeah, I’m guilty too, because, just like everybody else who’s a part of that body, I make mistakes, and, at times, am a pathetic example of Jesus.
All I know is, I’d rather approach someone as just a fellow child of God, then as a minister, or a “christian”. In the end, my title will not distinguish me, but rather my life.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:57 am
Yeah. I’m not big into the whole “Christian” scene. I hate being labeled a Christian. Here’s why:
1. I don’t claim to know anything. Most Christians say they “know” the world is six-thousand years old. They “know” how powerful God is. They “know” exactly what Jesus meant when he said this or that. Lemme tell you something: I don’t know, and I can’t claim to know. I don’t want to sound ignorant nor arrogant.
2. I can’t get into Christian music, books, movies, or whatever. Most people buy into this steep commercialization of Jesus. I just can’t do it. But I feel as though the “system” is designed to make me feel less-than-thou if I don’t buy those things.
3. I actually enjoy being looked at as a sane person. If you consider “Christians” today, most of them are looked at as insane. I mean, do you want to be a Jesus freak? Do you want to be that one dude at school that wears khakis everyday and reads his Bible at lunch? No. Last time I checked, that dude has yet to convert a single person to Christ because no one takes him seriously. Don’t get me wrong: zeal is alright., but it seems as though most people have a fake sense of self-righteousness. Not my cup of tea - though, I don’t like tea.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:59 am
I for one and proud to be a “Christian” although I am not always proud to be associated with “Christianity” in terms of the religious establishment. But I am very proud to be associated with Christ even if the label has gotten some bad pub because of the actions of others. As I told you, Jordan, good thoughts
To Jeff
1. There is a fine line between arrogance/ignorance and being SURE of something. For myself I can not claim to know how old the earth is or how powerful God is, but I can be Sure that God created the earth and that he is indeed powerful. Believing that the God I read about in the bible is real means to me that I will not know a lot of things but I can be for Sure in my mind that God is alive and has done amazing and powerful things even if science can’t allow me to “know” the when where and how.
2. I can’t get into some of the commercialization of Jesus either. But I do not write off everything that has a “christian” label before it. There are actually some amazing talented people who do things with a motive of being wholesome and providing a good message that gets put into the “christian” label without them maybe wanting it. Jars of Clay is a perfect example. They are a great band with a lot of talent, but because they write about spiritual things and their believe of God, they are put into the CCM catagory. Does that mean they are commercializing Jesus? No, they are spreading his gosepel in the best way they know how. So don’t write off everything that contains the “christian” label before it as commercialization.
3. I do want to be know as a Jesus Freak. I don’t care. I think you are confusing the poor sheltered kid who wears khakis to school, reads his bible at lunch, but no social skills with someone who lives daily for Christ and doesn’t care who knows about it. Jesus isn’t calling us to conform to the likeness of this world. He wants us to stand out and be different but we do so like Jordan said, where all are welcome to be different
December 1st, 2008 at 1:00 am
Nice thoughts Sean.
1. I got you. I’m not saying God doesn’t exist. I think you think I’m an atheist or something. lol I’m just saying that there are a lot of things I don’t know. However, a lot of Christians claim to know things. I mean, you got pretty mad at those signs that said “God is pro-life.” I’m just saying that there are a lot of things that we can’t possibly know. We can make educated guesses, but it’s arrogant to think we know what the truth is when we are ignorant of all the facts. That’s all I’m saying.
2. I guess I can understand Jars of Clay. I’ve just been so turned off by the way Jesus has been turned into a commodity that I honestly have a hard time believing in “Christian” artists. So I pretty much discredit most Christian musicians. Don’t get me started on Christian metal bands. Lamest thing ever. lol
3. There are obviously more examples than that sheltered kid with khakis. I mean, so many people who claim to be Christians. There are those that shelter themselves. There are those that condemn others because they don’t believe the right way. Then there are the hypocrites. I’m just saying, I think Jesus and I would be better off if I didn’t identify myself as a Christian. I’ve had a better time bringing Scott to Christ because I’m not like the average “Christian.” If I were, I can tell you he would never have opened a Bible, gone to church, or presided over the Lord’s Supper for the old folks. He may not have a lot of faith yet, but I feel my example has at least created a chance for Jesus to transform him.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:03 am
I get you Jeff. I don’t think you are an atheist at all. I just think you sometimes lump the people who really try to be Christ like into all the negative things you see about the religion of Christianity. But there are a lot of people who try really hard to be like Jesus, especially at gateway, but because they are extremely humble you just never know what they are doing. It is somewhat like the news, where all the bad things about Christianity always get talked about but the good things get put on the back pages.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:05 am
Okay. I’m glad you don’t think I’m an atheist or an agnostic. I just get the feeling that I act like a big jerk around you when we talk about Jesus. Perhaps I’m using my smugness to counter-smug the “hypoChristians.”
I know there are plenty of people at Gateway trying to be Christ-like. There are plenty of people everywhere trying to be like Him. And yes, you are right. The idiots get all the attention. I just wish people would shut up about Jesus and just start acting like Jesus. If that were the case, there would be so many more people willing to accept Jesus.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:07 am
We just have to do the best we can to be like Jesus to make up for those who don’t be like him.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:31 am
Great input, guys!
Leslie, about you question of where to draw the line and what distinguishes us: what does Jesus say about it? How much does He mention it? I’d answer, but I want you guys to do it. Again, what did Jesus say?
Sean, I like your point about being proud to be a Christian. I feel like that sometimes.
Jeff, you challenge things. I like what you said about people saying they “know” all kinds of things. I use to be like that somewhat. Also, boo you for not liking tea. Move north, please.
Braden, I like that you called out your “flavor.” People have different ones and that’s what makes the world go ’round. That idea might be misinterpreted as a labeling of some kind, but then again that accusation would come from just another flavor. Does that make sense?
I, for one, am more accepting of others now that I’ve gotten older. For me, this means less stress on myself simply because I’m not policing anyone anymore. Part of it is selfish irresponsibly I guess (”You do your own thing”…), but then again Jesus didn’t really do any policing, either.
He was cool.
December 1st, 2008 at 10:05 am
to Jeff:
Okay first of all, using most or all christians is not a very fair estimate. I know of very few christians who agree unanimously on how old the earth is and as far as I’m concerned the debate is pointless. the real question in my mind is not longevity but rather origin, in which case neither science nor religion can prove or disprove with any real facts, but rather theories.
Second, to lump all “Christian” music together and make a blanket statement about all artists is pretty much about as judgmental as those whom you would deem as ‘holier than thou’ as you call it. I am an artist, who for one, writes about Jesus quite a bit. I’ve sold my music and I’ve played shows and gotten paid for it. That doesn’t mean I’ve commercialized Jesus so much as I’ve been paid for my craft and have a positive message to boot. If we want to talk about the commercialization of things, then you could, in effect, blanket the ENTIRE music community, but then you’d be left with only listening to and playing your own music in a room somewhere. I, for one, believe that the music industry is flawed, period. But that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t listen to artists whose music I enjoy or I believe have musical integrity. I worked in the “christian” music industry in the mid ’90’s. I saw artists who I felt were really sincere in spreading the message of Jesus (i.e. Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith, etc.). They were the real deal. I also saw artists who just wanted to write some great tunes with a positive message and not get caught up in drugs, sex, and rock ‘n’ roll. They were great people too. And then there were people who were obviously greedy, were caught up in their image and took the whole thing too seriously. What I saw was not flawed “christians”, but rather flawed people in general - people such as myself. It had nothing to do with whether or not they were “christian” artists. If I listen to someone, and I like their music, then who cares whether or not they sing of Jesus or not - in fact, for me, it’s even better.
And as far as your 3rd point, the whole insanity thing - insanity has nothing to do with religion or “christianity”. Only an uninformed, ignorant person would say that someone was insane because they were a christian. Insanity knows no religious or theological beliefs. Again, people are insane because they are human, not because they are Christians. Also, insanity is often a perception rather than an outright fact. True, there are insane people in the world who need counseling and help, but you need to be careful about using the word insane. How do yourself know that YOU are not the insane one, and everyone around you is quite normal, and with what measuring stick do you yourself use, and is that the same measuring stick that everyone would use??
December 1st, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Gordy,
I’d like to know a sound congregation without the name “Church of Christ” on it. Not that there cannot be one. I just do not know of any. “The Church” is a perfect definition for those who obey God and who are in the churches of Christ. Christ taught us to observe all things that He taught (Matt. 28:20). We can only do this together without excluding the subject of worship.
Jesus was exclusive from false teachers even condemning them with harsh language (Matt. 23), and not sinners including those practicing sectarianism. Try to enter a fellowship of believers and not fellowship their false teachers. I’m all for inter-denominational discussions and I have engaged in more than most in the Church, but we must remember 2 Thessalonians 3:6, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all withdraw yourselves from every brother that walks disorderly, and not after the tradition which they received of us.” I will withdraw from those participating and promoting non-intelligible “worship” [includes praise].
My exclusion is when you separate (exclude) yourself from Christ then you separate yourself from the Church (1 John 1:5-7). This means not observing all things including worship. Non-intelligible “worship” and, or “praise” to God is blatantly condemned (1 Cor. 14). I can’t teach by foreign language nor by “lifeless” musical instruments (1 Cor. 14:7). I can’t pray by foreign language nor by “lifeless” musical instruments. The same is certain for singing (1 Cor. 14:15) since singing is either teaching and, or praying. See more http://godsbreath.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/decency-and-order/. I must withdraw from those promoting such including body percussion [the use of body parts for instruments]. Many like to describe this issue as a “worship war” or be little the subject under the title of “hand clapping”, “just music”, “tradition”, or “heritage”. This is just as the Baptist claims that baptism in Jesus’ name for forgiveness is just “water”. These are those wrangling words being “obsessed with disputes and arguments over words”.
The division comes from ignorant brethren and divisive malicious false teachers among the churches of Christ though “not of us” (1 John 2:19). They lie and play the victim card as though “legalist” preachers pick on them, and their followers remain ignorant of their deeds and even believe them.
I welcome any and all believers and non-believers into the Assembly to worship God in spirit and truth (1 Cor. 14). The Church is the point of unity in the Word not the point of denominating into false teachings.
December 1st, 2008 at 8:08 pm
I would agree, Scott, that you separate yourself from Christ when you separate yourself from his teachings. After all, Jesus explicitly states in John that if you love him, you should keep his commandments (Jn. 14:15) and that you must keep his commandments to abide in his love (Jn. 15:10). So I agree with this. But I have problems with your explanations of what that entails. I won’t get into the details, though I’m sure someone else will, but suffice to say I think we must determine not to condemn people for things that the God has not condemned them for. I suspect you would argue that God has condemned them for it, just not explicitly. It might go something to the effect of: [A] God has condemned man-made religion (Col. 2:23) and since [B] these things fall into that category, [C] they are condemned for participation in them. While the argument is logically consistent, I still think it is wrong in the end, because I would disagree with part [B].
How do you deal with the person who earnestly believes that you are wrong on part [B]? There is certainly a place for sound doctrine, but surely there must be a place for grace as well. Is there no place where I am allowed to be wrong without being condemned? This really hits at the point of my original question - determining that which objectively separates the sheep from the goats and wolves.
December 1st, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Scott,
First, asking Gordy to fine tooth every church to find out about their ’sound’ doctrine is ridiculous. I know that you did not say this, but that is what you’d have to do in order to find out if every church that’s not named “church of christ” is teaching sound doctrine. Are you willing to do that yourself, because that’s what you’d have to do in order to make your assumption true? Forget about what denomination is on the door. You yourself would owe it to every single individual church that you come into contact with to investigate their teachings. If you are unwilling to do this, then you can’t make any statements about the church of christ verses other denominational names.
Second, the “Church” is not the perfect definition of those who follow Jesus. The term, “called out” (Ekklesia) is actually the perfect definition, and it is quite a stretch to go from the greek phrase, “called out” to the english word corporate word church. In essence, the 2 are not legitimately connected - check your history.
Third, you are misapplying Matthew 23. Jesus was explicitly talking to the Pharisees, not his believers or followers. Other people of other denominations are NOT necessarily pharisees.
Fourth, you are again misapplying 2 Thessalonians 3:6. You have to read the entire passage verses 6-11. Paul here is talking about idle people who will not work. This is problem with using scirpture. You have to be careful to use it in the context in which it was written. I hardly doubt that other denominations are lazy and idle. Could you tell me anywhere in this scripture where it’s talking about worship?
Concerning I corinthians chapter 14, I think you have miss-used it. First, you have to go back to I Corinthians chapter 12 or even chapter 11 and get Paul’s entire idea. Heck, some would say that you have to read the letter in it’s entirety. Paul is primarily discussing order in worship. Nowhere does Paul make a blanket condemnation about speaking in tongues. His main guidelines include having an interpreter and speaking one at a time. And as far as the “lifeless” instruments you refer to, the point Paul was making was that they have a distinction in the notes. So based on what he said, as long as they have a distinction in the notes, then using them is fine. There is no indication at all that Paul is condemning instruments here at all. You have to look at the entire context, not just pick and lift verses out of their context. The whole hand-clapping issue is an issue that man devised, not God, not Paul, not Jesus.
You stated that the the division comes from ignorant men and malicious false teachers.
In my estimation the division comes from people who want to make rules, regulations, traditions, and laws where the Bible does not make them, and from people who want to falsely teach scripture.
December 1st, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Great points, guys.
I agree with L. I just think Jesus will have more grace with us than we have with ourselves. His actions were radical and His love for others, whatever their lifestyle, was one of non-judgment and acceptance through real love towards total strangers.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying “anything goes” or whatever. What I am saying is that I’m convinced we’re guilty of dividing ourselves based upon methods Jesus wouldn’t care about.
I’m just trying to do my part by throwing away some of my old ways of labeling and judging people based upon methods of exclusivity which aren’t something Jesus was ever caught with.
December 1st, 2008 at 10:27 pm
L Taylor,
Friend, man-made religion doesn’t work in this case. Second, do you really believe that God will forgive people who blatantly live in sin? Were the Corinthians walking in the light with disorder and indecency in the Assembly? Certainly not. There souls were stake for their sins and they had to repent (2 Cor. 7:9-11). Will God forgive for willing ignorant of His word or will He hold us accountable for knowing it and not obeying it? Certainly such a person’s heart is not right to disregard Christ’s Assembly. God’s grace is great and that forgiveness is free, but not cheap. Such who practice these things are like the Corinthians not walking in the light and Christ’s blood cannot cleanse their sins until then (1 John 1:7). Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). Though personal perfection cannot be attained, we must strive to observe all things (Matt. 28:20) and seek “for I have not found your works perfect before God” (Rev. 3:2).
December 1st, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Edward Lee,
Friend, you have judged me on many points in error. Please read my prior words again.
First, I just want to know one congregation, “a sound congregation”. That is not asking Gordy to fine tooth churches. “As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent” (Rev. 3:19), so let’s allow the words of Christ to do such. I did not say or imply that “Church of Christ” on the sign meant sound. I can make every statement about denominations. I know the teachings of all the prominent denominations even self-proclaiming “denomination” implies erring churches not in Christ. We must obey God. A church is of Christ when they are accepted by Him. Even the sinning Corinthian church and other were still churches of Christ though in error that would eventually lead to destruction.
Second, you’re word wrangling. Church means “eccleisia” in the Bible. You present the 14th century root-word “kirk” to a similar fallacy that church is sometimes used for a building therefore the word “church” should not be used. We agree that words should be defined by Scriptural definitions. Look more into the Greek on “eccleisia”. It is easy to spot those are not too familiar with Greek when their definition is “called out” and their pronunciation is “ekklesia” [btw I certainly do not know you pronunciation]. “Eccleisia”’s root definition was from the words “called out”, but the word means assembly, congregation, and came to be used for a mob or court. “Called out” is fitting for the saints but “eccleisia” was first used for pagan mods and civil pagan courts even in Acts 19.
Third, can you see? I did not say that members of denominations are Pharisees, but I do imply that their teachers and preachers are such false teachers. I made the same mistake you did and said that Jesus spoke to only the Pharisees, but Matthew 23:1 says, “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples…”. My point is that it was public.
Fourth, those idly sitting in denominations are idle and will eventually be found lazy if they do not seek Christ and His words for those who love Him have His words and they keep them (John 14:21-24). Friend, you are not familiar with whole context of 2 Thess. 3:6. Paul gives a command in 2 Thess. 3:6 regarding traditions from God and builds from it in following passages toward the subject of working. In this context, Paul also writes, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” Paul was talking about every tradition that is not kept. Only those who prefer the dark will not see this light and rightfully so.
You need to read again. First Corinthians condemns foreign languages without an interpreter. Paul stresses intelligent edification of the mind and communication in speech. Go teach with wordless music and pray with incense that the Bible does not condemn. Worship that does not communicate and is not understood is clearly condemned in 1 Cor .14. Those “lifeless” machines can only communicate notes and flutes, cymbals, and trumpets not any more than the bell of a church building. You might well condemn Paul along with me for not saying over and over again for saying “tongues” and not “languages that are not interpreted by an interpreter”. This is also word wrangling. Paul’s point was that they did not have an interpreter and had no means to use foreign languages in un-Scriptural ways in the Assembly. This principle includes each every unintelligible “act of worship”.
You imply that Jesus does not care about His Assembly and His music. You know what you will judged by. Christ’s words teach that instrumental music including body percussion is wrong. Christ Himself said that He gave His words to His Apostles (John 15:20, 17:8) and Paul concurred this in His speaking on the Assembly (1 Cor. 14:37). Jesus does care about His music. I guarantee you that He does not care for hand-clapping because it is not according to His will. He hates additions to His will.
December 1st, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Gordy,
I hope that you did not take my words as an attack. I am curious on how you will further define your understanding and practice on these matters.
God bless.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:38 am
No worries, Scott.
Can you show, in complete context where Jesus speaks on matters of music? As for my practices; I attend an Acapella-singing Church of Christ. While a few people clap during some songs, I usually just tap my finger silently on the pew in front of me…
To be honest with you, I actually don’t really think it matters. I mean, when I get to meet Jesus I believe whole heartedly that one of the last things to be brought up, if at all, is weather or not I clapped. Oh how small is this issue in the grand scheme of things?
I’d keep going, but the post was about methods of division. Are we to look Jesus in the eye and say “Hey man, the reason why we didn’t talk to them is for these silly reasons…” I’ve just gotten to the point where I don’t care about it anymore. The reason being is because I just don’t see it as a big deal. What is a big deal is living out The Sermon On The Mount. Things like:
- being meek, merciful, pure at heart and in spirit, etc… (Matt. 5:2-11)
- being the light of the world (5:13-16)
- loving your enemies; which actually might mean having no enemies (5:43-ff)
- giving to the poor; i can’t say enough about that one.
- [the rest of The Sermon]
Those are the things we’re looked upon to do, not divide each other because some people like to clap or whatever.
I’m trying very hard to revert to the short time I can remember where I wanted to be like Jesus and wasn’t yet taught to be divisive. That is how I experience peace.
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:54 am
Yes. Jesus speaks through His Apostles and prophets on music in the Scriptures (John 15:20, 17:8). They speak His words and commands as Paul said (1 Cor. 14:37). The very point and principle of 1 Corinthians 14:15 is to sing and pray with the mind [understanding] and not to worship in any way that does not communicate truth, which take away from this heart and ideal of God’s word by other such things. There are numerous people even John Calvin who affirms the parallel of instruments [includes body percussion] to foreign languages.
You want me to present Scripture specifically addressing music from words of Christ’s mouth. I can’t nor can I present a specific condemnation of homosexuality, incest, or pedophilia. I can only present a condemnation of fornication and a condemnation of false worship. I don’t think your source of authority in faith and practices has come to only using words explicitly from the physical mouth of Christ. I cannot show you Christ specifically dealing with the purpose of baptism in His name, how archbishops and popes are contrary to His will, or how prayer beads and incense are not acceptable aids for prayer. I can keep going with what I cannot present. I can show you Christ’s ideals and how they exclude. My heart breaks to hear you label God’s ideal for music as “hand clapping” and not being a big deal. Our worship is worth nothing if we do not obey the principles of the Sermon on the Mount, but obeying those principles to serve others are nothing unless we serve Christ and “observe all things” that Christ commanded in regards to worship.
I don’t know why you have ever not spoken to someone based on differences in beliefs. Who would ever do this and exclude themselves from followers in denominations? We have to reach out to them and they to us.
Jesus was divisive.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ’set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it” (Matt. 10:34-39).
“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Luke 12:49-53).
There will always be division between those who try to obey the “more important things” and those who “observe all things” (Matt. 28:20).
In the love of Christ.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Scott,
I think you are taking Paul’s teaching to the church in Corinth out of context when it comes to instrumental music or “body percussion”. What I read here isn’t about not singing with instruments but rather to sing with your full spirit and mind instead of just singing the words just to sing them, or “going through the motions” of singing. Just like Paul said in the previous sentence about praying with all of his spirit and mind.
Paul is discussing the gift of prophecy and tongues in this section to the church at Corinth, and to take that one little part and use it as a blast against instruments or “body percussion” is taking the verse out of context.
So what do you do about Revelation 15:2 where God himself gives Instruments (harps) to those victorous over the beast? Does God give them harps and tells him that if they sing to him while playing them that he will not acknowledge their worship?
Also, what about David, I know it is the Old Testament and people like to ingore it if it doesn’t prove their points, but David worshiped with instrumental music and God was pleased with him. Psalm 47 gives us a call to “body percussion” as we clap our hands in rejoicing to God.
I am not trying to seem rude, but it bothers me that a “tradition” (a capella worship) in the church of Christ has become something that people believe God told us to do, when the bible actually supports instrumental music instead of denouncing it.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a capella worship, and don’t ever want to see anything different on Sunday mornings at church. But that is because it is a wonderful tradition to me. I have been in worship services with instruments. Some are distracting, but some have been amazing times of worship.
Again, I hope I didn’t come across as rude. I just had issue with what you said about Paul’s words. I am also curious about your views on Revelation’s mention to instruments and God being pleased with David even with his use of instrumental music and “body percussion”.
Thanks
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Sean,
You do not sound rude at all.
Regarding 1 Cor. 14, why was speaking in foreign languages wrong? Why did they need an interpreter? The answer is the very principle of keeping the Assembly decent and in order. This is my whole point. I could make many more, but this one stands out.
Friend, 1 Cor. 14:15 was not written to point out the need for their spirit in worship because evidently it was there. The point was here that the mind must be edified. We must understand our worship. See verse 14 “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.” Their understanding, the mind, was unfruitful.
Sean, I assume that we are both familiar with the forms of worship in the OT. Incense, wine offerings, and more were pleasing to God. This law is now passed away and obsolete (Heb. 8:13). We must worship now in spirit and truth (John 4:24) according to Christ’s covenant.
Regarding Revelation, Revelation uses figurative language using incense to represent prayer and harps for musical praise. This is symbolism. In Revelation 5, “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song…”. I read of only singing and see incense as symbolism for prayers and the harps being symbols too. In Revelation 15 though having “harps”, the song of Moss and the Lamb was not played but sung. This is certainly strange that there are no other positive references to instruments, but numerous for singing. Despite that the instruments provides no understanding to the mind other than tunes and signals (1 Cor. 14:7-8). The Corinthians were like soulless instruments without a melody or signal for action. We can only worship God with understanding, and instruments do not preach, do not pray, and do not praise.
I didn’t come up with “body percussion”. It is supposedly the proper reference to the use of body parts as musical instruments.
I’m always to open to reconsider these things in the light of Scripture, but the Scriptures only teach against such practices.
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Scott,
Thank you for your answers.
But to me none of those scripture tell me that worship with instruments are wrong nor is clapping wrong in my worship to God.
As I said though, I enjoy the tradition of a capella worship in the church of Christ, and would not like to see instruments ever used on Sunday mornings.
Thanks again!